This space race ....

[deezelboy]

(1) Every alien in a hive except the queen should have a 95% of DNA similarity.

Where'd you get the 95% similarity from?  Sorry, I may have totally losty the plot at this point.  And why would a PredAlien not have 95% similarity but 50%-75%?

How could this 'DNA similarity' be coming from the hosts?  Surely it would be coming from the Alien parts.  Host DNA wouldn't be that similar between hosts - my DNA is different to yours, for example.

(1) What happens if a predalien molt into a  queen?

Presumably exactly the same as when a Human-Alien transforms into a Queen.

(2) Are the different hive-race aliens fighting each other?

No idea - this is why I'm going on about kin selection!  But as the Aliens in a single hive aren't fighting each other or their Queen, despite having quite disparate genes, I imagine that Hives wouldn't fight other Hives.

(3) Are the predaliens a different species?

No, they're just hybrids, just like the Human-Aliens and Dog-Aliens we've seen previously.  This is what Aliens do, and I doubt they fit into any definition of species because they can 'mate' with pretty much anything (by impregnating a host and combining their genes with the hosts).

(4) How would be the 100% Pure aliens?

That would be the Queen, if I've got Thedus right.

(5) If the queen chest-bursts from a Predator, will her eggs be different?

No, because the Eggs weren't different in the Derelict - where they could only have come from a Space-Jockey-Alien hybrid, and the Atmopshere Processor, where they can from a Human-Alien hybrid.  Therefore the Queen uses only Alien genes to construct the Egg (and see above, the Queen might not have any hybrid DNA, might be 100% Alien genetics).

(6) In Alien: Resurrection the queen was 50% human. How would she be if she was 50% Predator?

No change, I imagine - becaue the Queen didn't look any different from the other films despite having 50% Human DNA (although I doubt it was anywhere near this amount).

[Sterile]

I think the alien have different forms and looks but the eggs that come out of the Queen or the eggs generated by coccons are always the same ("pure") so in my theory the hybrid lasts only one generation because DNA mix probably doesn't affect the egg prodution (it doesn't have a gap to fill there).

But to be sure one has to look at the original alien (if they weren't conceived by Space Jockeys).

[Thedus]

That would be the Queen, if I've got Thedus right.

Close.   I still have to dive deeper into Wames2's ideas, but as I see it the egg and facehugger are the 'holders' of the untainted alien DNA.  The Queen still has her host's genetic samplings, but these are suppressed during the process of reproduction as the egg/facehuggers are produced.

[Ava]

*Ava gasping for breath*

I just had a VERY hard time paging thru this discussion (what the heck did I start? ) and
1) very good job, wames2 (+)
2) just the fact I take it seriously gives me some unpleasant geek/nerdy feelings so I better trow out my "RTFM" shirt and go out to get some life ...

[wames2]

My assertion has always been that the queen is a fortress of genetic stability.  To allow for this, lets make the following assumptions.

 1) The queen forms from the typical process of alien host genetic hybridization.

This would allow for variability across queens.  Thus, queens could still vary based upon host just as the other beasties do.

 2) The process of egg formation only utilizes unhybridized alien genetic material.

This can be reached by two observations: (1) The queen never produces full fledged adults, but only the spore/facehugger, which then most go on and "mate" to form an adult.  The only time this isn't the case is when across hybridization of the human/alien occured.  (2) The facehuggers and eggs are consistent, effectively static.  We can then conclude that:

The eggs/facehugger are actually gametes, and the chestburster is the zygote.  Since this is the case, the facehugger need not contain a full complement of genetic material and therefore can be formed via the isolation of only the unhybridized alien genome.

How does the queen reconstitute an unhybridized alien genome from her own hybridized genetics?  In a process which I'll call reductive meiosis 


As I imagine it, reductive meiosis effectively performs the opposite of typical meiosis by separating out the pure genetic content and isolating it to daughter gametes, which then from the eggs.  The process would begin with a germ line reproductive cell which splits apart its chromosomes by pulling away native gene segments from their host based analogs.  These native segments could be identifiable the presence of master sequence.  The host analogs would contain the complement to this sequence, but not sequence itself.

Simply illustrated (Noting that A always matches T, G always matches C):
Master sequence: ATGGGCTGATCTATC

   Queen's DNA
         [....ATGGGCTGATCTATC...] <== Orginal Alien segment
         [....TACCCGACTAGATAG...] <== Host complement segment

This process would segregate all host segments to one daughter cell, and all pure alien segments to another.  After this step, restriction enzyme would cut up alien segments at key marker points.  The fragments would then rejoin, and after a round a replication to fill in any blank spots, the process would begin again, eventually yielding pure daughter cells with only the original, unhybridized genetic content.

[Ballzanya]

Concerning dna and its replication through reproduction..etc., it's known that errors frequently occur in terrestrial species, thus resulting in mutations. The genetic material from the two parents in a species that sexually reproduces, often copies incorrectly.

I wonder how this would relate to the recombination of dna in the aliens. Would this perhaps account for the bullshit that is the predalien reproduction method? Maybe an error in the copying of dna from the facehugger and/or queen and that obtained from the host?
Perhaps this resulted in a mutation not normally seen in a normal predalien. I refuse to accept the molting into a queen or that all predaliens could do that reproduction method.
I have discussed that topic enough, especially when i was on avpgalaxy.net, but having read a little bit of the posts on this topic, especially as dna is concerned I am intrigued.

Could these gaps, evolved or otherwise, in the aliens dna, make the rate of mutations much higher and more likely? Perhaps an evolutionary trait that helps them adapt to their enviroment?
But mutations are usually random. Unless somehow the random mutations were limited to taking place in the dna gap that it fills with host dna, thus limiting the amount of change in overall dna structure. This would mean, if it were possible, that a certain percentage of the aliens dna would be consistent and stable, unaffected by whatever host it gestates in. I think the genes for the acidic blood, inner jaw, exoskeletal structure, elongated head/sensory appartus and tail would be in that portion of its genome.

So there would be no complete genome that is completely alien. If the space jockey's engineered them, they could have just used an intentionally selected deadly or adaptive species to fill the gap. If evolved, they could have developed that feature in stages, gradually getting a bigger dna gap that needed to be filled by the host. But tracing it back to the point where it wasn't there, would only trace back to a pre-xenomorph species the alien evolved from.

[Hieronymus]

I was going to make a new thread to ask about this...you just saved me the trouble.

I don't know if there's been a real, technical discussion of the predalien here.  Maybe there has, and I'm covering old ground, but that's a risk I'm willing to take.

My primary concern with "Chet" is its abominable (yet undeniably efficient) reproductive mechanism.  Where the hell did it come from?  The Strauss bros imply in the DVD special features, and perhaps elsewhere, that Chet is a young queen, and that this ability is common to all young queens, who would need to start a hive quickly.  I can't deny the logic in that, but I still don't care for it.  (Yes, I know, I'm not arguing from evidence here.  Sue me.)  I also prefer to assume that the queen remains genetically pure and does not take on host characteristics.  Yet, if you look closely at the back of the predalien's head, it does have sort of queenlike features - the bifurcation down the middle, the smooth plates.  I'm too tired and lazy to grab a screenshot right now.

As usual, I've come up with a list of hypotheses.

1.  The predalien is a queen, and they can do that.  They also take host characteristics.
This is the default position, I guess; it's the position the directors have assumed.  However, their word is not law, as we've seen many times before.

2.  The predalien is a drone, but it's somehow mutated, perhaps due to something in the nature of the host.  Out-of-control acquisition of host characteristics might lead to things like the pigmentation, the mandibles, and the dreadlocks, but unless I start invoking unforeseen side effects, it doesn't really explain the reproductive method.

3.  The predalien is a queen, and normally they can't do that and/or don't take on host characteristics, but this time is an exception, again perhaps due somehow to the host.  This would explain the back of the predalien's head, and the fact that it can reproduce at all, but still doesn't explain why it can vomit babies out of its mouth.  We also don't know why using a Predator as a host would make any difference.

Now, in two of those hypotheses I've invoked Predators-as-hosts as an explanation.  I've seen this around before; the "dominant-Predator-DNA hypothesis" - it's not popular.  It's also not where I'm going.  I have a few sub-hypotheses here as well.

1.  Predators and aliens share an evolutionary heritage.  Perhaps they evolved on the same world, or perhaps aliens were created from Predator DNA (as something fierce to hunt, or by the Jockeys as a weapon to exterminate them).  Either way, due to some genetic "like-dissolves-like" principle, aliens born of Predators are bigger, meaner, and have the ability to exploit a reproductive mechanism not available to aliens bred from other hosts.  If this is the case, however, it begs the question: what's the point of having a queen and eggs?

2.  Predators have an extremely unusual biology.  Going in the complete opposite direction here, maybe most life in the Milky Way shares common biochemical characteristics (blame panspermia, blame the Jockeys, blame the conditions of the Predator homeworld, I don't know).  The aliens either evolved or were designed to take advantage of those similarities, and Predator DNA thows them for a loop.  All sorts of wacky gene-activation errors occur; more host DNA that necessary is integrated into the chestburster; queen genes are active when they should be silent; HOX genes get messed up so ovaries wind up in the throat, et cetera.

3.  Doping.  We're (I'm) pretty sure that the Predators did something to the aliens at Bouvetoya; they breed too quickly.  Maybe they used hormones or genetic material from their own body.  Alternately, maybe they (particularly Scar) use hormones derived from alien biology as a sort of steroid or athletic enhancer (remember Xeno-Zip and Royal Jelly from the comics and novels?)  Somehow, the presence of Predator biochemistry in the aliens or alien biochemistry in the Predator, combined with an alien in a Predator host, led to the sort of errors described in the hypothesis above.

Whew!  Sorry that was so long.  This is what I think about at midnight on a Monday night...

[The Companyman]

Hiers is the man!

Team Bio-Weapons all the way!

[SM]

The BS also implied in an interview that the barfing was inherited from it's Predator host.

Meaning Predators have to wear dental dams to make sure they knock each other up every time they snog.

[deezelboy]

It's a lovely idea, though.  All those tough as nails, masculine Predators we saw in the film getting pregnant!  I wonder how the babies are born?

Hiers is the man!

Agreed!  And I always love his lists of hypotheses.  Ace!

Quick response on the first one:

1.  The predalien is a queen, and they can do that.  They also take host characteristics.

I'd like to think that Aliens onward would disprove this.

Alien 3 showed that Queens were born rather than morphed, which was further strengthened by Alien Defecation.  You can identify a Queen at an embryonic stage because it has something like a crest (although no extra set of limbs, interestingly).  Scar's chestburster wasn't anything like this, as I recall it looked like a standard burster with mandibles.

No 'secondary stage' or reproduction or morphology was mentioned in Alien Defecation, and they had people observing the newborn Queen all the time.  So unless the Queen was really messed up by the hybrid genetics I'd use it to nix the Strauses.

They find dead facehuggers in Aliens over the Hive, as well as empty Eggs, so it looks as if most of the colonists were cocooned and facehugged there. 

You've also got to question the implications of an AVP2 reproduction cycle in Aliens - if, say, four chestbursters are the result of every AVP2-style impregnation, you're looking at some 600 Aliens running around the place.

More later...

[Thedus]

Hiers is the man!

Indeed! 

SM is correct in that the Bros made mention that the ABOP's (Alien Born Of a Predator... I hate "Predalien"  ) method of reproduction is something picked up from its host... however, since this has never been a trait picked up by the aliens before I'm not sure why this would suddenly become part of the alien's biology.  ...unless we look at your latter three theories.

BTW I love this:

...or by the Jockeys as a weapon to exterminate them

The idea that the Jockeys would create the aliens to wipe out the Predators is pure genius (+)

2.  Predators have an extremely unusual biology.  Going in the complete opposite direction here, maybe most life in the Milky Way shares common biochemical characteristics (blame panspermia, blame the Jockeys, blame the conditions of the Predator homeworld, I don't know).  The aliens either evolved or were designed to take advantage of those similarities, and Predator DNA thows them for a loop.  All sorts of wacky gene-activation errors occur; more host DNA that necessary is integrated into the chestburster; queen genes are active when they should be silent; HOX genes get messed up so ovaries wind up in the throat, et cetera.

Not so sure about this one - only because the Predators do seem to share some biological similarities to humans, as well as other terrestrial organisms - such as maybe reptiles (carbon based, carnivorous - and can feed off of terrestrial meats,  can tolerate our atmosphere). Granted I'm pulling from a rather thin line of examples, but I think that based on what we seen in PREDATOR and PREDATOR 2 - sure they have some obvious biochemical/biological differences than humans, but I'm not sure the Predators are "alien" enough to have their biochemistry throw off the alien that much.  I'm tiered, so my thoughts aren't coming as well as I'd like... hope this makes sense.

3.  Doping.  We're (I'm) pretty sure that the Predators did something to the aliens at Bouvetoya; they breed too quickly.  Maybe they used hormones or genetic material from their own body.  Alternately, maybe they (particularly Scar) use hormones derived from alien biology as a sort of steroid or athletic enhancer (remember Xeno-Zip and Royal Jelly from the comics and novels?)  Somehow, the presence of Predator biochemistry in the aliens or alien biochemistry in the Predator, combined with an alien in a Predator host, led to the sort of errors described in the hypothesis above.

I had, at one time, come up with a theory that the Predators doped the captive queen with a synthetic retro viral anabolic steroid so that he steroid would not only remain in her system but it could be passed on the her offspring, and they would develop faster, as well as have tougher exoskeletons (thinking about the alien that gets whacked into a support column) - making them more challenging to hunt.  The idea was that this was a drug similar to what the Predators may use (minus the retro viral bit) either culturally, or ritually to highten strength and stamina before a hunt.   I hadn't thought of how that would effect an APOB.  ...This particular theory didn't go very far due to the fact that I was having a hard time making it work, and there is nothing to indicate that the Predators use any sort of drug prior to a hunt.

[Hieronymus]

BTW I love this:

...or by the Jockeys as a weapon to exterminate them

The idea that the Jockeys would create the aliens to wipe out the Predators is pure genius (+)

I wish I could claim it as my own.  I actually appropriated it from someone else for this argument, but I can't remember whom.  If I recall, I suggested that it would be unlikely for most species to keep a biological weapon designed to destroy them on board their ships for the purpose of hunting.  On the other hand, it seems uniquely appropriate for the Predators.  If it happened long ago, one can even argue that it makes sense that this would become a cultural ritual for their greatest warriors: "Here is a monster created by our ancient enemies with the express purpose of destroying our race - prove yourself by slaying it!"

[Thedus]

If I recall, I suggested that it would be unlikely for most species to keep a biological weapon designed to destroy them

True, but we keep plenty of weapons around that are designed for the mass extermination of the population (biological or otherwise)  Nuclear missiles, weapons grade viruses, etc.  So I don't see this as too far of a stretch.

[Hieronymus]

Right, but I meant that (in this scenario) these weapons were made by someone else to destroy the Predators, who are themselves keeping the things around.  We may have stockpiled anthrax in the past, but that was to get the Russians.  This is akin to the Russians developing something entirely new (which they did try to do, by the way), us obtaining it, and using it on our own people in controlled circumstances to prove our manhood.  There's no indication that the Predators ever intended to use the alien as a biological weapon themselves.  It could be that we haven't seen it, but it seems inappropriate for the thrill-hunting warrior culture we've seen so far.

[Thedus]

I agree that it seems unlikely (based on what we know of the Predator) that they would bio-engineer a weapon.  If anything they strike me as a culture that would want to face their enemies on the battlefield as opposed to using some form of bio-warfare.

...Still thinking about the idea of the Jockeys creating the alien to wipe out the Predators... raises the question of why?  Where the Predators colonizing and encroaching on Jockey space?  Did the Preds start hunting on their planets?  ...Or inadvertently hunt a creature the Jockeys hold in high regard (thinking some organism that held a religious role in the Jockey culture)...