Richard Dawkins Smacks Down on Rick Perry

[NERMAL]

Bit of both.

Take out the 'illegal immigrant' bit 'cos asylum seekers aren't doing anything illegal.

And take out the 'beer swilling' too.

Both are a sardonic point of view. Please excuse me.

Illegal immigrant is actually a valid point. Queue jumper also springs to mind. Plenty of people from other nations/countries go through channels and methods that validate their request for residency (And in my wife's case, Citizenship) without having to throw themselves into a leaking boat (yes, a Split Enz reference) hoping to find a better future. That they can then whinge about conditions back home and get entry based on those gripes makes a mockery of the processes and proceedures put in place to effect the same result. Seriously, why pay a smuggler upwards and beyond $10,000 per man, woman, and child when air fare is a similar or cheaper price? Why let these people in when others who take the time, effort, and respect the laws of the nation have to wait?  Aww, their village got bombed. Aww, the military junta wants to kill Dad. Aww, the local goat died. Aww, the national soccer team didn't make it into the world cup...

If your own country is going to shit, fix it. Don't abandon ship. Look at Libya as an example...

<Sits back waiting for the flames...>

[deezelboy]

Aww, the military junta wants to kill Dad.

I know this is trolling for flames but... seriously?  You place bureaucratic procedures over people's lives?

[Hieronymus]

Whatever happened to good old fashioned changing one's view?

When there's evidence, yes.  I was referring more to moral issues, on which objective evidence can't really exist.

<Sits back waiting for the flames...>

I love a good barbecue.  

Illegal immigrant is actually a valid point. Queue jumper also springs to mind. Plenty of people from other nations/countries go through channels and methods that validate their request for residency

I'm all in favor of having a process - it gives us an idea of who's coming in and why.  However, I think the process is a bit overly complicated and poorly designed.  For one thing, it can be extremely expensive - much more so than a plane ticket.  For another, a lot of the grad students and post-docs in my department are from India or China, and according to them, it seems that immigration policy is designed to ensure that once they have their degrees or experience, they'll leave.  That's utterly daft - if we're to spend money and effort training people, I want to encourage them to stay in the US.  We're losing scientific and technical expertise rapidly enough without shooing away people who come here for training.

Aww, their village got bombed. Aww, the military junta wants to kill Dad.

Are you really going to mock people who are desperately looking for a place where they don't risk death every day?

Aww, the local goat died. Aww, the national soccer team didn't make it into the world cup...

That's a bit of unnecessary hyperbole and I think it detracts from your actual argument.

If your own country is going to shit, fix it. Don't abandon ship. Look at Libya as an example...

Fine and dandy if you're 20 years old and no one depends on you.  If you've got a family, it's not exactly fair to them to draw the attention of the local junta and get yourself disappeared.

[Tryfan915]

(yes, a Split Enz reference)

 

[Nev]

You place bureaucratic procedures over people's lives?

I do too, kinda.

1) Without procedures and laws we wouldn't be the civilized, rich west. We'd be the same kind of shithole than the country the junta is terrorizing.

2) We have to know what kind of people come here, and what they have done in their origin country. I'm not too comfortable with the thought of an illegal alien who also happens to be a rapist or a killer wandering around.

[Hieronymus]

We have plenty of rapists and murderers in our respective countries that our bureaucracies never find out about.  Barring a prior arrest record, an immigration official isn't going to know what kind of person an immigrant is.

[Neltharion]

So, what you are basically saying is. Fuck em?

Out of sight, out of mind eh?

And you call us "civilized".

[SiL]

No, what he's saying is, how in the hell are you going to know unless they already have a record. Your next door neighbour could be a murderer and or rapist, never mind someone jut flying in.

[Neltharion]

I think you may be thinking I was responding to Hieronymus. I wasn't, I was responding to Nev and his declaration that he supports bureaucratic procedures over peoples lives, to point.

[SiL]

Your post was after his and there's nothing indicating you were specifically replying to someone else

[SM]

Both are a sardonic point of view. Please excuse me.

Illegal immigrant is actually a valid point. Queue jumper also springs to mind. Plenty of people from other nations/countries go through channels and methods that validate their request for residency (And in my wife's case, Citizenship) without having to throw themselves into a leaking boat (yes, a Split Enz reference) hoping to find a better future. That they can then whinge about conditions back home and get entry based on those gripes makes a mockery of the processes and proceedures put in place to effect the same result. Seriously, why pay a smuggler upwards and beyond $10,000 per man, woman, and child when air fare is a similar or cheaper price? Why let these people in when others who take the time, effort, and respect the laws of the nation have to wait?  Aww, their village got bombed. Aww, the military junta wants to kill Dad. Aww, the local goat died. Aww, the national soccer team didn't make it into the world cup...

If your own country is going to shit, fix it. Don't abandon ship. Look at Libya as an example...

<Sits back waiting for the flames...>

I'm trying to restrain myself but srsly...?

Every refugeee is whinging about their goat?  Alan Jones rang and asked if you could be a regular caller...

And no, illegal immigrant is not a valid point.  Anyone can make a claim for asylum, if it's denied, THEN they become an illegal immigrant.

As for the "queue jumper" argument - where's the back of the queue so people can join?

It'd take 20 years to fill the MCG with people arriving in Australia by boat seeking asylum.  In 2009 there were 50000 people in Australia who had overstayed their visas and really were illegal - but no one gives a shit.   In 2008 we accepted 13000 refugess.  Just over 1% came by boat.  There is no crisis, we are not being swamped, and anyone who tells you we are is either ignorant or lying.

And as for paying a smuggler vs. the apparent simplicity of just jumping on a plane - could be kinda difficult if you don't have a passport.

All demonising boat people does is appeal to latent racism.

[Nev]

We have plenty of rapists and murderers in our respective countries that our bureaucracies never find out about.  Barring a prior arrest record, an immigration official isn't going to know what kind of person an immigrant is.

Exactly. We have murderers and rapists of our own enough already. Why collect them from abroad aswell? Many have prior convictions, and I'd like we find about them at the border rather than after the bodies start to appear.

So, what you are basically saying is. Fuck em?

Out of sight, out of mind eh?

If that stops our countries from becoming like their countries, yes. Anarchy is never a good solution. Where do you think they (and we) will go after the whole world is a gigantic third-world country? Tying into that, illegal immigration costs like a motherfucker to the state.

There's a reason the west is rich and well-being. Well, at least moreso than most of south and east. The levels of corruption there are something unbelievable. That's what happens when you give up rationality for emotionality.

And you call us "civilized".

Yes. If we weren't, the flow of immigrants would go in the other direction.

[SM]

Exactly. We have murderers and rapists of our own enough already. Why collect them from abroad aswell? Many have prior convictions, and I'd like we find about them at the border rather than after the bodies start to appear.

Dunno what it's like elsewhere, but we have this .  Though it has been argued that under these guidelines people like Gandhi, Aung San Su Kyi and Nelson Mandela would fail.

There's a reason the west is rich and well-being.

Exploitation of labour laws and the lack of basic human rights in the third world?

[NERMAL]

<sigh>

I challenge every bleeding heart liberal to personally adopt an ethnic immigrant family. To house that family in some manner (spare room, garage, tent in the back yard whatever). To then employ that family (preferable to just forking out assistance payments) in return for their skilled services. If they turn out to be doctors or motor mechanics, you win. If they need a bullet point lecture on how to cut grass, you lose. If they are a great bunch of people, you win. If not, and your family pet goes missing or your home starts showing an increase in wear and tear, you lose.

This is effectivly what an open door immigration policy means on a personal level. To an economy that has difficulties supporting it's own population it's a needless burden. I'd much prefer to see those resources put into health care, infrastructure, schooling, aged care, low income subsidies...

The only argument I can raise in support of immigration from developing nations is to increase the pool of taxable workers. In a nation and economic environment that has an aging population, it is the only option besides increasing tax rates. Unfortunately we do not have a robust, growing economy generating new jobs. Instead we have lay offs, forced redundancies, and retirees who can not afford to retire due to the GFC.

[SM]

So your problem is with "ethnics"?    What exactly does your use of "ethnic" mean?  I hope to Christ it's not "non-white".

As for "open door" - I personally wasn't advocating that at all, and I don't know if anyone else was either.  I was talking particularly about boat arrivals seeking asylum.  We have over 150,000 (conservatively) immigrants every year.  In 2010 we had nearly 7000 asylum boat arrivals (which was the highest ever - previous year 2849, this year 1675 to June 30).  So 4% give or take arrived by boat.  It's a small amount of people who deserve to be treated humanely while their claims are processed.

It's not too much to ask - despite what politicians, tabloid media and rabid right wingers will have you believe.